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Evolution vs. Creationism


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Thursday, October 15th, 2009
Evolution vs. Creationism
Should there really be a debate? Come on people...

"...when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."
- Richard Dawkins

Last night we had the pleasure of attending a lecture by Richard Dawkins. Quite an amazing evening and discussion about his new book, The Greatest Show on Earth. How scary is it that approximately 40% of Americans still believe in Creationism?
43 Comments
ppike
1) Scary.

You know, when I was in school (elementary on), I don't ever remember any talk about creationism. No one I knew had a problem balancing the theory of evolution (science) and their faith. But I guess I didn't have much contact with people who believed every word in the Bible came from the actual mouth of God rather than being stories passed down over numbers of generations -- man's interpretation of his faith/understanding of God; certainly inspired and containing truth, but subjective.

My question to people over age 50 is: Is this fervor over creationism a new phenomenon or was I raised in a bubble?
pegi   Thursday, October 15, 2009
Alexanderville
2) Let's be clear too, Evolution is a bit more than a theory.
Alexanderville   Thursday, October 15, 2009
justmeg
3) touchy subject - I believe in both - i think that God has a big hand in evolution
justmeg   Thursday, October 15, 2009
George
4) The problem is that we humans think we're so smart, that we know all the answers and that science is infallible. I've been on both sides of this debate having been a former atheist, and now I'm on the other.
I've read a ton of Dawkins and used to think he was "The Man" but now I just think he's arrogant.
Try reading Case For A Creator by Lee Strobel or Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe.
LimeyGeorge   Thursday, October 15, 2009
dennydeaton
5) The three reasons most people believe in something are; tradition, authority and revelation. Each are bad reasons to believe in something. With anything (not just the "how we got here" question) one should request evidence, form an opinion and periodically re-evaluate that opinion. Evidence changes, theories get thrown out or become facts when enough empirical evidence is found.

Pegi,
When I learned about evolution in school it was also presented as a theory, so I assume it was a theory when you were first learned about it too, considering you are only a few years older than me. :) That was over 20 years ago for me, a lot has changed and a lot more evidence has been discovered. It's time for people to re-evaluate.
Denny Deaton   Thursday, October 15, 2009
Alexanderville
6) @LimeyGeorge, not saying that science is infallible, but there are infinite possibilities/opportunities to disprove evolution, find ONE. I'm not claiming to have answers, just millions of years of evidence.
Alexanderville   Thursday, October 15, 2009
George
7) The onus isn't on disproving a theory. Evidence can be taken any way one wants to take it and the subject is so touchy in this country that people tend to have a pre-defined opinion and only read things that concur with their beliefs. That is exactly what I used to do in reading all those Dawkins books.
LimeyGeorge   Thursday, October 15, 2009
Alexanderville
8) @LimeyGeorge, what? Are you saying that you don't believe in evolution? Once again, all I ask is that you show ONE piece of evidence that contradicts evolution. And I'm not sure why this has to be a touchy subject...

As a side note, my interest in Dawkins is pretty new, so I'm not basing any of these comments on his view/approach taken in his older work, i.e, "The God Dillusion", or any of the like. His recent work on providing evidence in support of evolution is what I find so intriguing. So when you use words like: "beliefs, and pre-defined opinion", I'm a bit lost as to how they apply to evolution.
Alexanderville   Thursday, October 15, 2009
George
9) I believe that all the basic animal types were created but that there is micro-evolution within species. This is fine. Our dog is a lab mixed with something else and one of his traits might prove beneficial to his survival thus, if he still had his knackers, giving him more chances to pass those genes onward. I do not, however, believe that this dog, given sufficient time will "evolve" into a different species. This is where the fossil record evidence deserts us and leaves us speculating and extrapolating iterative changes.
LimeyGeorge   Thursday, October 15, 2009
10) boy you don't mess around with your blogs. Infrequent and the subject is one of the biggest debates of our time.

My outlook on life is very lighthearted. Evolution is right in our face everywhere and science backs it up, but there are also things that happen in life that science can not back up i.e. spirits, miracles, etc...I feel like a higher being created everything we know including the way the world has grown, developed, changed (evolution). I find it very daunting to NOT believe in a religion.

Here's why; If it turns out there IS a God,higher being as a religious person when I die I go to heaven, the next life, wherever. IF I do not believe in God or higher being I go to "not a fun place" or reincarinated as a hosue fly:). If it turns out there is not God and just germs and dna bubbling in mud then lights out when I die. That is not a risk I want to take when no one has the answers. Isn't more fun to think of the possibilities of life after death rather than just going blank??? Better safe than sorry!
bek   Thursday, October 15, 2009
Alexanderville
11) @LimeyGeorge, one of Dawkin's points made regarding this can be found here (not short, but a good except from the book):
http://www.newsweek.com/id/216140
I was quite surprised at the claim, but it does seem solid after review...pretty clear on the fact that fossil record is not needed to prove evolution.

Also, animals were not created, they evolved, thus the discussion here; and species evolution takes a bit more time than what we have to hang around for...
Alexanderville   Thursday, October 15, 2009
Alexanderville
12) @bek, I'm not questioning/debating religion, afterlife or any spiritual beliefs. What I'm going after is the fact that 40% (or close to it) of our country believes that Evolution is a myth/fallacy.

And yeah, sorry for my sporadic blogging behavior, I'll work on it.
Alexanderville   Thursday, October 15, 2009
Dana
13) So, do 40% of Americans believe in Creationism or do 40% of Americans not believe in evolution? There's a big difference there, and those figures are not interchangeable.
Dana   Thursday, October 15, 2009
Alexanderville
14) I'll look up the numbers, but It was clear that more Americans believe in Creationism than do Evolution.
Alexanderville   Thursday, October 15, 2009
15) I do believe in evolution. I understand where you are coming from. People assume to easily that because a person believes in evolution they are atheist (sp). I think those 40% have a hard time at opening their minds to the notion that religion and evolution could possibly co-exist.
bek   Thursday, October 15, 2009
16) Blah blah blah.... Why is this even a debate? Evolution is PROVEN, Creationism is a story. Might be a collection of nice stories, but that's all. Once again, why is this so hard to understand? It is sad that your churches are making you guys scared of not believing in anything other than your tiny little book. Why can't evolution exist and not be a threat to become eternal damnation? Why can't you believe that God created evolution?
Sarah   Thursday, October 15, 2009
17) Sorry, I shouldn't say "you." I just mean who ever "you" are...you know who you are...
Sarah   Thursday, October 15, 2009
dennydeaton
18) I like turtles (the Galápagos Islands kind).
Denny Deaton   Thursday, October 15, 2009
dazedpink
19) I'm in Bek's coexist camp...
Jules   Thursday, October 15, 2009
George
20) People believe what they want to believe. I'm not going to change any minds here, especially considering I'm one of the worlds worst arguers.
LimeyGeorge   Thursday, October 15, 2009
girlcarew
21) I was gonna come and say I was an atheist... but that has certain connotations that don't necessarily apply. Then I was reading through the latest Post Secret book and came across a fairly apt description.
I'm an apathist.... I don't know and I don't care.
Well, it's not really that I don't care. But I certainly don't know. Although I usually use "atheist" as my descriptor, I am certainly open to the possibility of there being something. It's just that the chances seem awfully slim, and I don't really get "belief".
I've gone through a variety of religions and then just being 'spiritual'. A couple of things irk me, though.
I find more "religious" people who are completely confident that their way is THE way. They are often less open minded to the idea of there not being a god than I am to the possibility of the existence of god.
I find Richard Dawkins annoying, condescending, and not helpful to the "atheist cause" (for lack of a better term). I would so much rather that Carl Sagan were still alive.
girlcarew   Thursday, October 15, 2009
spike
22) Jason, I think it is scary too. Facts are facts.
I heard Dawkins on 'Charlotte Talks' this morning. I liked the comparison of Human Selection and Natural Selection. If we(humans) can make little designer Picashitz from wolves in a couple hundred years, I know nature can change a lot in selection in a few thousand years.
Spike   Thursday, October 15, 2009
23) Not trying to stir the pot, but you don't have to look too far. This subject has actually been presented before on Humzoo.

http://www.humzoo.com/PaulNowlin/blog/5/
Pot Stirrer   Thursday, October 15, 2009
Alexanderville
24) This morning on Charlotte Talks:
http://charlotteblogs.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/friday-o...
...an interview with Bishop John Spong, great talk and interview with one of the most intelligent people I think i've heard from, regarding current state of religion, in a long time.
Alexanderville   Friday, October 16, 2009
stevenheinzel
25) Wasn't Carl Sagan the best!! Not only for his great intelligence and understanding of the processes in the natural world, but more so for his uncanny ability to explain things in an understandable manner. I wish he was still with us, also!
stheinz   Friday, October 16, 2009
justmeg
26) # 23 has a point and I just went back and read through that whole blog and comments and we all made some pretty good points on that blog and there was no bloodshed (which is always nice) ;)
justmeg   Friday, October 16, 2009
ppike
27) Jason, I'd love to hear Spong in person! I've been listening to him in that broadcast and I am on the same page. Love this guy!
pegi   Friday, October 16, 2009
RickMonday
28) I definitely think there is evolution. No doubt about it. However, I also think that there is a God or superior being who started everything. Who put the gases here for the Big Bang? What are the odds of everything working out so perfectly that we have advanced life here on Earth?
RickMonday   Saturday, October 17, 2009
RickMonday
29) Here is my theory on how evolution happens. Someone please feel free to offer a different opinion.

Genes are constantly mutating. The ones that thrive and survive are the ones that tend to be passed on to the next generation. For example, that is why Giraffes have such long necks. The ones with the short necks died and were not able to pass on their genes to the next generation. That is why females of most species tend to mate with the strongest or most powerful male. They want the next generation to be stronger...etc..
RickMonday   Saturday, October 17, 2009
30) I don't think anyone who believes in evolution thinks that it needs to be excluded from god or religion. It doesn't explain every detail of our existence, but I definitely think it's more than a theory. There's no doubt that evolution exists. We have bones and dna and historical data that proves that beyond a doubt. You'd have to be a complete moron to think it's not real....which is where the frustration comes from. There are an incredible amount of very stupid people that think that the earth was formed in six days by a dude with a beard sitting on a cloud. Those people have some how convinced other stupid people that we should teach our kids this total nonsense alongside science and actual proof of evolution. I believe in god. We don't have all of the answers. We have a lot to learn...but to believe that evolution is made up athiest-communist-hippie-homosexual propaganda is just fucking stupid. That is the point. Natural selection is a bitch....and stupidity could either fade into extinction or become the predominant trait of human existence. It's your choice.
matt   Saturday, October 17, 2009
ppike
31) Now, now, Matt...

Just to clarify, I misspoke about calling it the theory of evolution, I guess. It's a science - or what? Theories aren't valid enough? I, clearly, have not moved my vocabulary forward with time...
pegi   Saturday, October 17, 2009
32) I think that's the debate. The word theory is used by idiotic right wing crazy people to trivialize it and make it seem as though it's just an idea, or a belief...like religion...which clearly are not comparable in the data/research/actual information arena. It's technically a theory, but not in the way that religion is....which is an actual theory with no facts or tangible evidence.
matt   Saturday, October 17, 2009
stevenheinzel
33) In the scientific world a theory is an explanation of a large number of facts and observations about the natural world; something is not called a theory unless it has been confirmed over and over and over by many experiments. Unfortunately, in popular use theory is often used to imply mere speculation.
stheinz   Saturday, October 17, 2009
ppike
34) Thank you, Steve and Matt.

And science is a study of something, right?
pegi   Saturday, October 17, 2009
RickMonday
35) On the same hand some evolutiontists take it to the extreme and dont believe in God either. The fact is that science only goes so far. For example, science has yet to prove what happened before the Big Bang. Where did the gases come from? What caused the "spark"?
RickMonday   Saturday, October 17, 2009
stevenheinzel
36) Science is an explanation, based on observation and measurement, of natural phenomena. Science can PROVE nothing, science cannot tell what ABSOLUTE TRUTH is. Science is a tool we have for obtaining knowledge.

The Big Bang was not an explosion of gases - gases (that compose the present observable universe) are a product of this explosion. The early universe contained no atoms, therefore no gases.

IF the Big Bang was the creation of the universe there is no indication of anything carried over into our universe from before the Big Bang. So if something did exist prior to T-0 (time of the Big Bang) there is no evidence that any of it carried over into the present universe. Since science deals in observation and measurement one has to rely on some other discipline to deal with what happened before the Big Bang. There are a lot of hypotheses and ideas circulating about conditions and events prior to the creation of the present universe.

If the Big Bang took place it was not a conventional explosion with which we are familiar, that is, the exploding of bombs or the detonation of a nuclear bomb. The entire universe as we now know it was contained in an almost infinitely small space. "In the beginning, a tiny bubble of spacetime, a billion-trillion-trillionth of a centimeter across, popped spontaneously into existence out of nothing as the result of a random quantum fluctuation." - David Pratt in "Cosmology and the Big Bang"
stheinz   Monday, October 19, 2009
RickMonday
37) Thanks stheinz for opening up another can of worms!!!

So, what are your thoughts on the Big Bang or Creationism? Obviously something happened or I may just be a figment of someone else's imagination. Or we all may be like the speck of dust in Horton Hear's a Who.
RickMonday   Monday, October 19, 2009
Alexanderville
38) The most likely culprits, leading to the Big Bang, are dark matter and dark energy. Both of which come together to account for almost all mass in our universe and probably beyond.
Alexanderville   Monday, October 19, 2009
stevenheinzel
39) One hypothesis is The Big Crunch. Our universe is expanding as a result of the Big Bang. If it contains enough matter gravity will eventually slow its expansion and then reverse the process, all of the matter now coming back together again. This is what is referred to as the Big Crunch. The result will be another Big Bang. There are some who hypothesize that this Big Bang, expansion, contraction, Big Crunch, Big Bang has repeated itself over and over and over - The Oscillating Universe. (Some suggest that each new universe will increase in size in each new expansion) Then there's the Steady State believers - they suggest the universe has been in existence forever and ever, has no beginning and has no end!! There are many ideas of the origin and evolution of the universe in cosmology. The point I am trying to convey in all of this is that we are dealing with something here that seems too complex for the human brain to comprehend - we humans have a hard time trying to comprehend infinity and very large and very small numbers. Our present day science can take us back to something like 10 to the negative 43rd seconds after the big bang, but to go earlier than that we need to develop other mathematics and science to understand what took place - so for now we can only speculate.
After having said all of that I will get to the point of what I believe. According to science and the laws of nature they have figured out, a universe like ours can be created out of "nothing" in a big bang without a Supreme Being's assistance. To me that type of universe is a cold and impersonal entity. If one inserts the hand of God into the creation process then the universe becomes so much more beautiful and warm. I believe in a universe that was described in a sermon by a minister (Reverend James Barge) I heard one Sunday morning back in the 1970s: "God created the universe and its up to the scientists to figure out how he did it!" I think their construct of a Big Bang with an Inflationary Universe following is the best idea available. I haven't followed the cosmological thinking and proposals in the last 15 years, but I am sure there are new ideas being put forth by the best scientific human minds that bear consideration.
stheinz   Tuesday, October 20, 2009
spike
40) I am in the Steady State camp. That is hard for us to accept because we invented time. We cant really grasp the idea of there being no beginning and no end. For me, God has no beginning or end, so why should the Universe?
Spike   Tuesday, October 20, 2009
daveheinzel
41) Either our universe has been here forever or it hasn't. Both are hard to comprehend.

However we came to be, we're certainly a unique planet in our part of the galaxy. Our species has arguably accomplished more in the last hundred years than any other living organism since the planet's birth (which has probably been a true statement for hundreds of decades).

In the past ten years we have effectively brought together every person on the planet by means of computer networks (excuse me for glossing over the population with no computer access).

We've come so far as a planet and as a species, yet we constantly disagree about almost every topic imaginable. We're all like a great big dysfunctional family on vacation in a station wagon. With wood paneling.
Dave Heinzel   Tuesday, October 20, 2009
stevenheinzel
42) Spike - are you saying time didn't exist before human beings?
stheinz   Wednesday, October 21, 2009
GoodNews
43) What get's me is the evolutionary philosophy that is posited by many. A widely used college textbook, Evolutionary Biology makes this claim, “By coupling undirected, purposeless variation to the blind, uncaring process of natural selection, Darwin made theological or spiritual explanations of life process superfluous.” This is a philosophical statement, not a scientific one and does not belong in a science text book in my opinion.

Reminds me of a quote from one of my favorite Movie Trilogies. The Matrix:

Agent Smith: Why, Mr. Anderson? Why do you do it? Why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for something? For more than your survival? Can you tell me what it is? Do you even know? Is it freedom? Or truth? Perhaps peace? Yes? No? Could it be for love? Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And all of them as artificial as the Matrix itself, although only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson. You must know it by now. You can't win. It's pointless to keep fighting. Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? Why do you persist?
Neo's response: Because I choose to.
Good News   Tuesday, November 17, 2009
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