Thursday, July 8th, 2010
Fed lawsuit Against Az illegal immigration
The federal govt recently sued the State of Arizona over its illegal immigration law that was recently passed. The basis of the govt's argument was that it was the Fed's job and not the State's job to enforce immigration.

Lets be perfectly clear here. This lawsuit was 100% politics based. The democratic party is courting the hispanic vote and they believe this is good politics. A couple of problems that I have with this lawsuit:

1. The fact of the matter is that the federal govt is doing a horrible job of enforcing the laws and some would argue that they intentionally turn a blind eye to the problem. I find it comical that they are suing Az for essentially doing the job that THEY are suppose to do. All of this would go away if the feds (and I blame Bush here too) would do their job.

2. If the President were sincere then he also would have sued the State of Rhode Island which passed its own immigration laws a few years back. Believe it or not, every state trooper is required to ask for proof of citizenship when they pull over a suspect. If the trooper believes the person is illegal they have to turn them over to ICE. There have been little or no problems with this approach and yet you dont hear about the success of this program from the mainstream media.

The President gave a speech the other day on immigration reform and yet once again it was heavy on generalities and short on specifics. Again Mr. President, please take a leadership stance on this issue, even if I disagree with you, I want you to grow a pair.

For example:

1.Do you support amnesty?

2. Do you support criminally prosecuting those that hire illegals?

3. Are you for expanding the guest worker program?

In short Mr. President, what is your stance?

You have a 10% unemployment rate, some say the real rate is as high as 16 or 17%, in this country and Americans cant find jobs. The illegals keep coming here, why? Because they can find jobs. These illegals are taking Americans jobs; and not just the low wage ones either. Here is a specific example: I live in a middle class neighborhood. My neighbor was a butcher in Beardstown. He lost his job to what he believes is an illegal mexican and subsequently had to foreclose on his house. That put a strain on his marriage and he had to get a divorce. Their little girl went to school with my son and the whole situation was just horrible as she went with her Mom back to Chicago. His job wasnt a $4/hr job but one that paid above a living wage. Now it has gone to, again to what he believes, was an illegal. ICE has raided the Beardstown plant several times and yet they keep hiring more and more illegals. Until they deport the illegals and jail the employers, nothing will change.
29 Comments
girlcarew
1) Sorry not to be able to take the time to address everything here. But, one point I'd like to make. Arizona's law "requires police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally". In Rhode Island, it was an executive order and basically "directs the Rhode Island State Police and the Department of Corrections to work with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement to ensure federal immigration law is enforced." IOW, in RI, it is not a requirement. I have read in a few places that it would be quite difficult for the federal gov't to challenge in court a "practice".
I'm not saying I agree with or don't agree with the laws or practices in either state. But that is my understanding as to why the fed gov't has not sued in RI.
girlcarew   Thursday, July 8, 2010
RickMonday
2) good points Girl, but I think you left out one important piece of the Az law "authorities can only detain suspected illegal immigrants in the process of enforcing another law or ordinance." The key here is that when police pull you over and they suspect you are here illegally then they can detain you.

They cannot go up to a family getting ice cream and not breaking the law for no reason other than that they suspect they are illegal.

Looking forward to hearing your comments on the other points. Thanks for commenting.
RickMonday   Thursday, July 8, 2010
stevenheinzel
3) Unless I am mistaken, there are already federal laws that deal with the entry of illegal aliens into this country. Unless I am mistaken, there are federal laws that deal with employers who hire illegal aliens. Unless I am mistaken, our President recently said "we need more legislation" dealing with this problem! Unless I am mistaken, our President needs to get off his political rear end, make a decision and implement it, promptly and forcefully. Unless I am mistaken, all the legislation in the world isn't going to solve this problem any more than all the legislation passed on gun control stopped crime committed with guns - those laws really scared the criminals didn't they? Where's Teddy Roosevelt when we need him? Yeah Bean, I am getting fed up with his inability to take action and lead!!!
stheinz   Thursday, July 8, 2010
mattpike
4) For Example:
Yes. Yes. Yes.
They don't have to be mutually exclusive. The world is not black and white, and I think your neighbor is made up to make your point.
mattpike   Thursday, July 8, 2010
daverock
5) brewer recently said most illegal aliens in arizona are smuggling drugs. really?!?! an estimated 500k illegals in az and most of them are smuggling drugs? what the hell was she smoking when she made that statement? under the new bill there's a section that says an officer can ask for papers if "reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien." if arizona's idiot governor believes most illegals are drug mules, then why wouldn't the police ask for the papers of a hispanic man taking his family to get ice cream?
Dave Rock   Friday, July 9, 2010
RickMonday
6) Matt,

I didnt make it up and I really dont want to provide any more information on these folks as I dont want to name names.
I mean it was a horrible story and I got a first hand view of the entire process. I dont know why ICE doesnt raid the plant more often.
RickMonday   Friday, July 9, 2010
RickMonday
7) Dave,

Brewer's statement was stupid. I think we should legalize drugs and take the incentive away from drug dealers and gangbangers.

Also, you only have heard about a portion of the key piece of the law. The mainstream media tends to not promote the fact that there is an extension of the law that says "upon lawful contact". They just cant stop you for being a suspected illegal or being hispanic or getting ice cream.
RickMonday   Friday, July 9, 2010
hawkwolf
8) The Federal Government Action in this situation is like every thing that The U.S. Government, under President Obama has tried, is a disaster caused by Strict Liberalism.
BeanCounter37   Friday, July 9, 2010
hawkwolf
9) States have rights and the less Federal Interference the Better. if the Liberals have their way, every "Wetback" that comes across the border will have the right to vote and have free health care and other government benefits. The fence at the Border should be electrified and have rolled Constenia wire at the top in case one gets over the top.
BeanCounter37   Friday, July 9, 2010
mattpike
10) sorry. It's a complicated issue obviously, but I don't think that racial profiling is the way to deal with it. There are lots of legal citizens who are willing to work for next to nothing right now as well. I experience that every day.
mattpike   Friday, July 9, 2010
RickMonday
11) I really dont think it is complicated. Coming to the US illegally is by definition a crime. Crimes need to be punished in a civil society. I have to follow a plethora of laws every day and I am sure you do too. Why should illegals get a break?
But you are correct in the sense that we seem to be making it complicated.

And if what you say is true about many Americans are willing to take almost any job, then why would you want to limit the number of those jobs available? Illegals are taking many many jobs that could be going to Americans. And it is not just in the fields. There are many union construction workers who are being underbid by groups of illegals.

Another specific example: Another friend of mine who lives in St Louis needed a lot of landscaping done on his 2 acre property. He was receiving bids from American contractors for around $3500. A hispanic crew boss who was doing other work in his neighborhood found out about the work needed and said his group would do it for $700 cash. He had a crew of 8 guys working a full 2 days to get the work done. It was quite obvious they were illegal. Now I think my friend is not innocent on this, but at the end of the day, the money went to what were likely illegals.
RickMonday   Friday, July 9, 2010
GoodNews
12) Rick don't you know that the free market is evil... except of course when it benefits illegals... and me. :o)'

And Bean... using such racial slurs only confirms and feeds the darkest parts of your heart and serves to inflate others disdain towards you. Please realize/remember the grace and mercy of Christ that has been extended towards you, and pass it on to others... even those you dislike.
Good News   Friday, July 9, 2010
RickMonday
13) Yeh, Bean, you dont do the cause much good by the name calling. If you cannot make a point or argument without resorting to crude names you probably shouldnt comment.

My brother's inlaws are 2nd generation Mexican. They are very pro-family, hardworking, and smart. Many of them are doctor's and will go out of their way to help you.

This legal/illegal issue has nothing to do with racism. I dont care if these people were from Europe, Canada, or Timbuktoo; the issue is that they have broken the law, are stealing our jobs, and Americans are hurting. White, black, green, and legal hispanic Americans are all suffering because of this epidemic. Our already tight budgets are being further stressed, our national guard, and local police forces are being stressed, and our school systems are being stressed. As much as I would like to accept illegals into our society, we are ultimately a civilized society and must adhere and enforce our laws. Otherwise chaos will ultimately ensue.
RickMonday   Friday, July 9, 2010
mattpike
14) To your point, this is true free market economics, and you have to be pretty stupid to to think that you'll get the same thing with a $2,800 difference in cost. You get what you pay for...always, so I personally vote for regulating and punishing on the consumer/employer side, since we've never been able to truly stop people from coming here. The only way to do that would be to build a fence, line it with soldiers, and shoot anyone who tries to cross. That may be preferable to some, but it's the definition of wrong doing and insanity in my book.

This, also, is hardly any different than shipping nearly all of our manufacturing jobs to China and elsewhere. Those jobs had a huge impact on our economy. Residential landscaping and very cheap construction didn't exist until there was a market for it. We have to value our people, and be willing to keep our neighbors employed by buying products and services that actually employ them if this is going to change.

I thought you guys understood 'trickle down' economics? It works in reverse as well.
mattpike   Friday, July 9, 2010
RickMonday
15) Matt, I agree with the 2nd half of your post but regarding your "you get what you pay for" comment, I have to disagree.

Although I am hard on illegals, I have not nor probably ever will question their work ethic. The nature of my friends landscaping was mostly labor. And the illegals were working for about $4-5 dollars/hr.

i often see day job lines filled with hispanics, likely illegals, but very few of other races. I wonder why that is?

But the point of my recent example was that this coyote had 7 illegals working for him and was paying them crap.
RickMonday   Friday, July 9, 2010
16) Without reading all the comments I will say simply this, and perhaps in near future return to elaborate on the other comments . . . .

Tyson foods was well known, for years, for paying managers to organize and arrange to have illegals brought in through Texas and then provided said illegals with false paperwork and id's in order to hire them at less payrates than american workers.
Ashley   Friday, July 9, 2010
mattpike
17) Rick--that's a perfect example of you get what you pay for. They're freaking illegal! And your friends knew it. Do you think they're insured? Do you think they have a warranty? Do they pay taxes and contribute to the well being of our society? When we pay for services, we pay our neighbors salaries. They might work hard, but it's hardly a fair comparison, since you're only looking at a small fraction of the actual cost that is imposed. Why don't people get this? That is why this is a complicated problem...because we're stupid, greedy, and don't want to get our hands dirty. We have to have some individual accountability and hold our neighbors and friends accountable as well. I believe in some sort of amnesty. I believe that they are hard working, good people who are only trying to make a living, but I will not hire guys from the home depot parking lot for $5 an hour no matter how tempting is it in the short run. I'd rather employ people I've spent years developing relationships with...I know their families...I know their kids names, and I want them to work as much as possible, so that they might return the favor at some point. There are a lot of people who live in this country, which makes almost everything complicated and seem too big to overcome, but if Americans would view their communities AS a community--instead of a place they live their own life that just happens to be surrounded by lots of other people that don't matter to them at the moment---then these issues would not exist. We have to stop blaming and expecting the government to 'fix' our problems and simply be aware of the impact our individual lives have on others. This particular problem is not perpetuated by the low income, uneducated masses that feed on the government tit. It exists and is perpetuated by upper middle class Americans who know better, and selfishly and greedily choose to save a few dollars.....for non-essential services. Don't want illegals in this country? Mow your own freaking lawn. Better yet, don't have a lawn and plant a garden instead. That way, huge farms won't need to employ hundreds of thousands of illegals so you can buy a tomato from 3,000 miles away for .75 cents.
mattpike   Saturday, July 10, 2010
RickMonday
18) Matt,

Again, I agree with your last post. I am not saying that I agree with what my buddy did, but when you are looking at 1/5th the cost it could be quite tempting. By hiring these illegals, Americans were not able to do the work.

So the next question is now that we agree that this is a problem, is what to do about it.
RickMonday   Saturday, July 10, 2010
mattpike
19) Well...for starters, we can be individually accountable like I already said. Is the temptation too great Rick? I would rather do my own landscaping and deter job creation for illegals. Does that really not make sense? If there is no demand, they will go home. It really is that simple.
mattpike   Saturday, July 10, 2010
daverock
20) "Also, you only have heard about a portion of the key piece of the law. The mainstream media tends to not promote the fact that there is an extension of the law that says "upon lawful contact".

rick, so you're assuming that i or anyone who disagrees with the new az immigration policy is uninformed because we only get our information from the liberal run media? damn, how can i argue against that sound logic? well, i have a friend who has a 2nd cousin that lives next to a guy that knows a guy that lives in arizona and he claims that any person of color can and will be persecuted on all trips to get ice cream with their family.
Dave Rock   Saturday, July 10, 2010
RickMonday
21) Dave

You usually tend to recognize all of the facts. However, in this particular case, it seems based on many articles and blogs I have read about this situation that Yes the left has tended to leave out that particular clause. Why?....because that clause is counter to what the left and Obama want to believe about the law: that it legally endorses racism.

The example that Obama gave about a family buying ice cream will be subjected to interrogation is complete BS.

And the 2 examples I gave are very real. My point is that if I can directly see how illegal immigration has a negative impact on legal Americans, than the problem is probably much worse.
RickMonday   Tuesday, July 13, 2010
jef
22) I would love to hear how your neighbor has come to believe the butcher is an illegal Mexican. Maybe that was the case or maybe your neighbors knife skills weren't up to par and he got fired. Who knows, but I'm tired of people always looking to blame Mexicans.

My father in-law is a Mexican-American with dark skin (born in Peoria, IL) and my wife is half Mexican with white skin. I don't think it's fair that after being an American for 60+ years and serving in the U.S. military that he should have to carry his papers when traveling through Arizona. While my wife (and the rest of us pigmentally challenged people) are able to travel without worrying about getting thrown in jail after having dark skin and a headlight out.
jef   Friday, July 30, 2010
jef
23) No politicians really want to touch the immigration issue because it is s loose-loose situation. Although, sooner or later Obama is going to have to take some tough stances on immigration reform.
jef   Friday, July 30, 2010
RickMonday
24) Jef,

My brothers' family is all from Mexico and my nephews are part Mexican American. We are not blaming mexicans but illegal aliens. Obviously many of them are from Latin America.

Regarding my neighbor the only thing I can tell you is what he told me and I have no reason to not believe him. It is common knowledge that Cargill employs illegals and there have been several raids from ICE over the past few years there.

So, I dont have 100% proof but only the word of my neighbor and strong circumstantial evidence.

But I agree the debate so far seems to be weighted only against the illegal workers and there has been little talk as to the culpability of the employers.
RickMonday   Friday, July 30, 2010
GoodNew
25) BeanCounter...."If the Liberals have their way, every "Wetback" that comes across the border".

We should make all immigrants start wearing patches and confiscate all their belongings, right Bean?
Affable Cynic   Friday, July 30, 2010
jef
26) Now that immigration reform is a major issue, it's not just "illegal aliens" that are getting treated poorly. Americans with Mexican heritage are being treated like shit. Many people are automatically assuming someone is illegal just because they are Mexican/Latin. Just like your neighbor "believing" the Mexican man that got his job is illegal.

Are your brothers' family U.S. citizens? If so, do they think that it is fair for them to have to carry their papers while traveling through Arizona while your brother does not?
jef   Friday, July 30, 2010
jef
27) Here is another bad example:
I had a cookout and invited my neighbor (who I didn't know too well) over. He proceeded to tell me how he couldn't stand going to McDonald's anymore because of all the illegal immigrants working there. The people he was referring to were young Mexican-Americans that spoke English as well as any other high school student. I'm going with the assumption that they were legal.
He then went on to equally offend African-Americans, but that is another story.
jef   Friday, July 30, 2010
RickMonday
28) jef,

My brother's wife is 1st generation. Her parents came here legally and went through the process. Her father is a doctor and she is a dermatologist. Surprisingly enough they want immediate deportation for illegals. They feel that if they had to go through the legal process then others should too. How is it fair if the illegals here get a pass? Its not.

Also, if they went through the legal process then they wouldnt be exploited like they are today.

Where does it say that you have to carry papers. That is a falsehood propagated by Obama when he gave the horrible example of claiming that kids could be approached by police while eating ice cream

If I get stopped by the police then I have to show ID; so should they.
RickMonday   Friday, July 30, 2010
jef
29) Rick, I don't have time to read through the bill, but I thought one of the main parts of the bill makes it a crime for aliens to not have their papers on them at all times? I might have been mixing up 2 different things.

My Mexican-American father-in-law also wants to stop people from coming into the U.S. illegally. He is fairly conservative on the issue and also thinks all Mexicans that immigrate should have to learn English. However, he also thinks the Arizona bill is unconstitutional and just promotes racial profiling. He recently has seen a huge change is the way people treat him and Mexicans in general.

I know that you can't just open the borders and make it a free-for-all, but you can't really fault people for wanting to make a better life for their families. If my family was starving, I wouldn't wait in a bread line for 10 years, I would steal a loaf. Lets not demonize them (I know you are not, but some people are). We are just lucky to be born in this country.
jef   Friday, July 30, 2010
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