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Monday, August 4th, 2008
Drop-Down Dilemma
I've been designing web sites for clients for several years now. In every case, I have successfully avoiding using drop-down menus. But now I have a problem.
A client who has been with me for several years and who has given me plenty of business came to me with a request recently. They want drop-down menus on their site. I'll skip the details, but suffice it to say that my perception of the situation is that they want drop-down menus just for the sake of having them.
Usually web design works like this: you have a problem, and you form a solution. This time it seems as if they want a solution with no concern whether there is a problem or not.
What's Wrong With Drop-Downs?
More importantly, I'd ask "What's RIGHT with drop-downs?" Any element of a site should serve a specific purpose and solve a specific problem. There is always a way to do this that does not involve drop-down menus. They are a band-aid for an otherwise poorly designed site. Too many links in the header can be confusing, and hiding the links doesn't actually cut down on the confusion - it only hides the problem -- literally.
The best way to organize a site is to have a set of links in the header, and on each of those sections, any nested pages are immediately obvious on that section's main page. For example, say I'm looking for a knife to slit my wrists. So I go to Walmart.com. I would expect to click on something like Sporting Goods. Then on that page, I would see all options in that section, including Hunting/Knives (possibly under which is Implements of Self Destruction). On the main Sporting Goods page, that's where you can list out on screen a map of sorts with links to everything in that section. That's fine. But don't do that on the home page, and don't do that in hidden menus.
Practical Considerations
There are some actual, real reasons that a site should avoid drop-down menus. For one, if the only way to access those sections relies on the drop-down menus, and those menus rely on JavaScript -- congratulations, your site is inaccessible to anyone with JavaScript disabled. I doubt visually impaired people who rely on screen-readers would have much more luck. Same for search engines - how can they follow a link they don't know to click on? Yes, some of these problems are obscure at best, but they ARE problems. And introducing new problems when "solving" existing problems is not very productive.
What Should I Do?
As a professional web designer, I feel that it would be an injustice to the client's site and visitors to give in to the drop-down menu request. I have suggested alternatives (that make sense and are more user-friendly), but they're falling on deaf ears. The client is determined to get drop-down menus.
One option is to suck it up and do it. Another option is to dump the client and tell them good luck.
What do you think I should do?
Drop-Down Dilemma
I've been designing web sites for clients for several years now. In every case, I have successfully avoiding using drop-down menus. But now I have a problem.
A client who has been with me for several years and who has given me plenty of business came to me with a request recently. They want drop-down menus on their site. I'll skip the details, but suffice it to say that my perception of the situation is that they want drop-down menus just for the sake of having them.
Usually web design works like this: you have a problem, and you form a solution. This time it seems as if they want a solution with no concern whether there is a problem or not.
What's Wrong With Drop-Downs?
More importantly, I'd ask "What's RIGHT with drop-downs?" Any element of a site should serve a specific purpose and solve a specific problem. There is always a way to do this that does not involve drop-down menus. They are a band-aid for an otherwise poorly designed site. Too many links in the header can be confusing, and hiding the links doesn't actually cut down on the confusion - it only hides the problem -- literally.
The best way to organize a site is to have a set of links in the header, and on each of those sections, any nested pages are immediately obvious on that section's main page. For example, say I'm looking for a knife to slit my wrists. So I go to Walmart.com. I would expect to click on something like Sporting Goods. Then on that page, I would see all options in that section, including Hunting/Knives (possibly under which is Implements of Self Destruction). On the main Sporting Goods page, that's where you can list out on screen a map of sorts with links to everything in that section. That's fine. But don't do that on the home page, and don't do that in hidden menus.
Practical Considerations
There are some actual, real reasons that a site should avoid drop-down menus. For one, if the only way to access those sections relies on the drop-down menus, and those menus rely on JavaScript -- congratulations, your site is inaccessible to anyone with JavaScript disabled. I doubt visually impaired people who rely on screen-readers would have much more luck. Same for search engines - how can they follow a link they don't know to click on? Yes, some of these problems are obscure at best, but they ARE problems. And introducing new problems when "solving" existing problems is not very productive.
What Should I Do?
As a professional web designer, I feel that it would be an injustice to the client's site and visitors to give in to the drop-down menu request. I have suggested alternatives (that make sense and are more user-friendly), but they're falling on deaf ears. The client is determined to get drop-down menus.
One option is to suck it up and do it. Another option is to dump the client and tell them good luck.
What do you think I should do?
Unless they pay their bills on time. Then you just do the dropdowns and take their site out of your portfolio.
Don't do it; it's crap.
To remedy this, we came to a compromise. We reorganized our website and developed a pseudo-drop menu.
Maybe you could work this compromise with your customers. Basically, now, the nav bar works like an apple menu. There are the main inside page links when you first get on the home page. there are little triangle pointing right - if you click on it, it points down and expands to show all the sub-sections under that inside page. Click it again and it goes back up. If you don't click the triangle and just click that section name on the nav bar it takes you to that inside home page and at the same time expands to show that section's subsections. Kind of like what you were talking about earlier ... and automatic sort of drop down. (I can send my company link if you like if this explanation wasn't very good)
I think it's a great compromise and it's working really well for us. Maybe you could try it with your clients.
For example, if you have 8 main links in your header, awesome. That's not too many, and most users can scan then quickly to determine which one best suits their needs. But if I click one of them and am presented with a drop-down menu with 8 options, then mentally the number of available options has actually gone up to 64 (because I assume that the other menus also have about 8 options). And that's when, as a visitor, I get the "oh no I'm never going to find what I'm looking for" feeling.
I've tried some common-sense compromises, but no-go. And if my wife, who has been eating sawdust for weeks now because we're so poor, is telling me to bow out instead of sucking it up for the money, then maybe that's a good way to go.
I am putting the finishing touches on a new version of Humzoo and it has drop down menus. I was going to keep the new version a secret but since reading your blog I couldn't wait to tell you more about it. I really think you'll like it. Also, we sell knives now.
Niki, what are radial buttons? Are those like buttons made of old tires or something? I agree, sounds totally 80's!
it's a left nav, and yes. they show up when clicked. however, since they are grouped well, it shouldn't be too stressful for people to find what they're looking for (we definitely tried to go with the 3 click rule). If they click on the top to go to it, it goes to it and opens up the menu subsections.
plus the 8,000 links on all the other pages leading to other pages within the site. I see what you mean though.
I would go in and tell them you side and why. I think there is a good chance they're listen to the "expert" and agree if you have samples and "statistics". Oh man, people love statistics!
A client with no respect for good design and with no desire to logically produce the best solution for an existing problem is not one that I want to work with. And I think it has come to that point.
Sometimes I'm in the same boat as ou, I can't make my clients do what I want, all I can do is give them my advice and information about what will happen after they make a particular choice. Sometimes they just want to do their own thing, regardless of the good advice.
I don't think its up to to either of us to make their lives or website perfect. I think we can do our best to guide them, but doing what we do doesn't have to include miracle working. They only get miracles when they take our advice. ;-)
I was told in a web class I had that the customer never knows that they want till you show them. So give them two nice options and one really crappy one that has the items they suggested. They can't possibly pick the bad one, so you get your way and they're none the wiser. If they pick the bad one, run, run far far away!!! I hope it all works out for you, Dave.
A reasonable compromise is to throw in a free splash page with this effect.
http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex3/leaves.htm
I'll send you an invoice for my time and expertise.
I have tried to understand why, and I think it all boils down to board meetings. The board meets, they need some changes. Person A suggests changing some things on the web site, the board likes it and they chit chat for a bit about possibilities. By the end of the meeting, they have their minds made up about what they want. After that meeting is the first time I'm brought on board, after the solution is already decided.
Problem is - like you said - the client never knows what they want. And they're not designers. Which is why they called me in the first place. But now, Person A has the weight of the all-mighty Board on their shoulders, and if they don't deliver what was agreed upon in the meeting, then it makes Person A look bad.
I can provide all the logic and research in the world showing why their idea is bad and why my solution is better for their clients, but that always falls on deaf ears.
Just tell them that dropdowns are not 508 compliant, and you're saving them from a possible lawsuit.
Promlem solved.
Sounds like drop time. Drop the bomb that their design sucks and you can't do it with good conscience,then if they don't listen, drop them. Sorry to hear they're buttheads.
Way to go Joe.
To say there's NEVER a valid reason to use drop-downs is silly -- that's like saying you should NEVER use the blink tag... But in the end all you can do try to steer the client in the right direction, and then decide if whoring out your design skills is worth the loss of dignity that comes with compromise.
blink
blink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disability-related...
No results online for the Scavenger Hunt, but it was in the paper paper on Friday. They did a drawing from the correctly answered submissions. SJ-R lady has been trying to get a hold of me since Friday.
Really, if you're in the position where you can walk away from a paying client because you don't want to lower your standards to accommodate their wishes (or even better - if Courtney says you can), then good for you.
I've been at the same company for 14 years and I agree with Dave, once they have made up their mind, even if it is technically a disaster, they will go at it full-speed until some new toy or some board member gets them excited about some other toy. It's the way of most corporate thinking--especially when they feel they are techno-smart but in reality are not.
I guess it depends on your work ethics. Eating dust with integrity and not compromising your talents and skills and knowledge; or giving the customer what he asks for and being less than happy with your work (from what you said with your video for the credit union--you are a perfectionist and are rarely satisfied even when it is great).
I like the idea of discussing it from your expertise and experience with websites. Mention the lack of politically correct accessibility as well as the style being very 90s and showing the company as behind the times. Most execs hate to look dated and old-fashioned--they like that new technology! (one even asked today if our Outlook works well with an iPhone--bet someone got a new toy recently!). Hopefully seeing it as dated and showing age instead of new technology plus the lack of access for the physically challenged user will make them rethink their choice.
If not, then you are back to dust/integrity/work satisfaction or steak/compromise/work dissatisfaction. :)
Emailing now.
2nd Comment: Money is great but don't do the job if you feel like it leaves a black mark on your portfolio. If you wouldn't want your name name to be associated with the work, then it's easy: don't do the job unless they accept that they're not getting they're precious little drop-downs.
If they are a good client, you might as well suck it up. LGrant's idea to charge them way more than they're expecting is a good one.