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Saturday, August 30th, 2008
On abortion
This blog is prompted by the naming of Sarah Palin for McCain’s VP choice and all the cheering from the religious right wingers about her stance on abortion/choice.
So, let me be clear, I believe abortion should NOT be used as a form of birth control, which it was during the 70’s when I was a nurse on the obstetrics floor and intensive care nursery of a teaching hospital in North Carolina. Late term abortions should not be performed except in extreme cases with extreme circumstances. I was present when a cesarean was performed (hysterotomy is what they called it) to abort a baby that in other circumstances I would have been caring for in the ICN, trying to keep the baby alive. It was medicine at it’s worst. There was no emergency, no extenuating circumstance, just irresponsibility all around. There is something intrinsically wrong with that.
That said, I want to know how someone (especially a woman) can be against abortion in cases of rape, incest or serious health problems for the mother. To those people I want to ask, (and please really consider this possibility) if your daughter, sister, mother or WIFE was raped and it resulted in a pregnancy, do you really believe that they must be forced to allow that embryo to gestate and grow into a baby that they are forced to deliver? Do you insist that they not only must deal with the fear, the humiliation, the pain, the lifetime recovery of such an act of violence but also be exposed to more pain and suffering because of your religious beliefs?
And, really, isn’t that just a few steps away from certain religious fundamentalists in other parts of the world who will kill the rape victim to keep her from sullying the family name?
I cannot fathom this kind of thinking.
On abortion
This blog is prompted by the naming of Sarah Palin for McCain’s VP choice and all the cheering from the religious right wingers about her stance on abortion/choice.
So, let me be clear, I believe abortion should NOT be used as a form of birth control, which it was during the 70’s when I was a nurse on the obstetrics floor and intensive care nursery of a teaching hospital in North Carolina. Late term abortions should not be performed except in extreme cases with extreme circumstances. I was present when a cesarean was performed (hysterotomy is what they called it) to abort a baby that in other circumstances I would have been caring for in the ICN, trying to keep the baby alive. It was medicine at it’s worst. There was no emergency, no extenuating circumstance, just irresponsibility all around. There is something intrinsically wrong with that.
That said, I want to know how someone (especially a woman) can be against abortion in cases of rape, incest or serious health problems for the mother. To those people I want to ask, (and please really consider this possibility) if your daughter, sister, mother or WIFE was raped and it resulted in a pregnancy, do you really believe that they must be forced to allow that embryo to gestate and grow into a baby that they are forced to deliver? Do you insist that they not only must deal with the fear, the humiliation, the pain, the lifetime recovery of such an act of violence but also be exposed to more pain and suffering because of your religious beliefs?
And, really, isn’t that just a few steps away from certain religious fundamentalists in other parts of the world who will kill the rape victim to keep her from sullying the family name?
I cannot fathom this kind of thinking.
Death for your own reasons can hardly be better then death for oil... er sorry... war on terror.
And I'm in agreement with Pegi that abortion is NOT birth control! After all, up until September 2004 when I got pregnant with Galvin, I'd been preventing pregnancy for 20 years - successfully! Now my sister, well, that's another story or maybe a blog...
Of course all this is rhetorical unless it actually happens. The state of your emotions when faced with the issue for real cannot be predicted with certainty.
What's a couple of Valdez oil spills and the resulting wildlife and Chugach community destruction when one can avoid vengence from God?
Deliverance from evil and foreign energy independence, I think not.
With that out of the way, I'll add my comments to the real focus of the blog. I was always pro choice until I had my own child. That's not to say I'm not pro-choice now, though really for me it's only ok in extreme situations...mothers life in danger. Victim of rape or incest. That's pretty much it. Ultimately yes it is up to each woman to decide, but that doesn't mean I have to like or agree with her decision (unless for one of the reasons I stated above). If it were me that was raped? I don't know. Most of me thinks I would continue the pregnancy, but like LG said, I'll never know what I'd do unless it were to actually happen.
I also agree with BEG though, in that it will never be a black/white issue, and I think the worst thing that could happen would be outlawing them. My views on this issue are anything but black or white...while I hate them and disagree with them, I don't want to see them outlawed either. Women would still seek them and they'd no longer be a safe procedure.
You bring up a very rare, extreme, but valid example. But then you lambast pro-lifers for their stance on this extreme issue.
On the other hand, I can provide an extreme, very rare, but valid scenario too. What if a couple finds out that their child is a girl and they really wanted a boy. They then decide to have the abortion in the 8th month using the late term abortion method where they stick scissors into the baby's head. Do you still think that this choice should be the woman's? At what point do we as a society look out and protect the INNOCENT unborn?
By suggesting that the pro-life vp choice of McCain will be able to outlaw abortions is similiar to saying that Barack Obama will allow the botched abortions that live to be killed after birth.
Although I am consisent in my pro-life views I would be willing to make a compromise that the only time an abortion should be allowed would be in the cases of rape, incest or if the Mother has a chance at dying and an abortion could save her life. I wonder if the pro-abortion crowd would take that deal. And if not, why?
Did you also forget to add the Bidens son is a lobbyist for credit card companies? What the hell, a few million people paying 30% interest is worth it for Joe Biden so his son can make a few bucks.
Change? I think not.
To answer your last question: No. Even Scalia says that there is nothing about abortion in the Constitution. Where the Court came up with their reasoning in Roe v Wade is one of the top 3 blatant examples of legislating from the court.
So, if there is nothing about abortion in the constitution then it is a a states rights issue. A few states may ban it but not all. So all of you abortionist supporters can be happy that we will always have abortion mills in the USA. What a great country!
I think it would be a mistake to outlaw early term abortions but I do think if a woman seeks a second abortion it should only be done if she is willing to have her tubes tied.
I would be willing to support a candidate who agrees on abortions for the 3 cases you mentioned, depending on their other social/political stances.
I more or less share Palin's view, but avoid the bombthrowing, please.
I will answer your original question if you will answer mine.
Do I support abortion in cases of rape or incest. No. Since I believe the fetus is a live human with a soul, it is not their fault that they were conceived via those methods. The only time I support abortion is if it comes down to the choice between the mother's life or the baby's.
Like I suggested, I would be willing to compromise on that stance if we were to outlaw all other abortions except for rape, incest, or potential death or serious health issues (this would need to be clearly defined, as the baby just simply giving the mother a migraine headache would not be considered serious to me but it is a "health issue")
Would you be willing to outlaw all other abortions except for the cases I suggested?
Look, I dont think people are evil if they support abortion, so I dont want this to turn into "I am holier than thou issue". I understand that most women take this issue seriously and frankly feel sorry that their lives have gotten to the point, one way or another, where they have to even consider an abortion.
My wife and I are considering having a 3rd child, each of us is 41 and the potential for Downs is high. But we would never have an abortion if the baby did have Downs we would love him/her just like our other children.
I'm talking about locally grown terrorists who bomb people in this country because of abortion -- but you know that.
borrow at 2% from the FED then lend at 30%. If the loans go bad, the FED will cut you another jumbo loan to paper over the loss.
nice work if you can get it.
Somehow, I think feminist put the abortion issue up high on their list to garner more support for equal rights and wages. No proof, just by opinion. It definitely has become a wedge issue. And frankly, when deciding to vote for a president it is about number 99 on my list. I am not voting for Obama, not because he is pro-choice, but other reasons. The fact that the President has little say on the abortion issue just goes to show how wrong people's priorities are, in my mind. Hillary was pro-choice and I would have voted for her.
I agree that late term abortions should only be in extreme cases, and I'm not against life, but I'll never be for government telling me what I can or can't do with my body.
Of course this begs the argument about when life becomes life, when can the baby feel? When is the baby truly conscious? If abortion is to be viable we have to draw a line somewhere and that necessitates a determination that cannot be clear-cut. Even if we can say that a baby becomes conscious or can feel pain, there will always be differences in the speed of development.
This is a debate that will perpetuate indefinitely and I think will always boil down to whether you focus on the rights of the woman or the rights of the unborn. One usually has to come before the other.
I'm also very glad she had the freedom to make that choice.
I hate abortion but at the same time I don't think criminalizing it is the answer. This isn't the solution but sex ed can help reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies...please schools, don't be afraid of dealing directly with this issue.
Nancy, I find it very interesting that because of humzoo I am aware that you and I are on the same page on so many issues. We get into conversations that we are not likely to have at family gatherings. A good thing, I know!
As your Mom and a nurse I admire and appreciate your dedication in a field that I personally could not handle.
Laurie, you make perfect sense to me. I agree, we need to figure out how to prevent unfit mothers from having babies in the first place. It would prevent much of the child abuse and neglect that we spend tons of money and time trying to remedy. The crack babies suffer the rest of their lives. And, I agree there are many more cases of rape and incest resulting in pregnancies than most people are aware of. Talk of sterilization is severe, but I've always felt we needed to consider that with habitual abusers and unfit mothers.
Also agree, Dannie, there's pretty much no excuse for a late term abortion, except to save the mother's life, if that is what she chooses.
But it was not for my sister. She had Cody in '92 while married, divorced in '96, and had Cali JoAnn in '98 with her ex-boyfriend. Then both in 2000 and 2001, she got pregnant, again unmarried, and she knew that she would not be able to give birth to a child and turn it over for adoption, but on a single-mother income, she couldn't financially raise a third, fourth and fifth (2001 = twins) child. I agreed even though she considered Bill and I to raise the twins, if she decided to have the babies--she really didn't want us to do this because I was at ISU full time and not finished with my degree (she knew I'd never go back, and she was right). Anyway, she has had to live with those decisions ever since. It's not been easy for her, especially when Cali was diagnosed with Ewing's Sarcoma in 2007 and Cody suffered a severe brain injury after being hit by a truck in 2007 as well, feeling that God was punishing her for her past.
I guess my point is that a lot of the women having abortions probably hate what they're choosing to do even more than the rest of us, and they'll have to find their way through life living with that decision. But it should be just that: their decision.