Wednesday, April 8th, 2009
The whole truth.
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the rich out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply the wealth by dividing it."


-Dr. Adrian Rogers
Tags:  Politics
21 Comments
dazedpink
1) I wholeheartedly agree.
Jules   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
nikideaton
2) So I can quit my job and you guys will take care of me?
niki   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
willnbek
3) Niki, consider yourself... "took care of"
WillnBek.com   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
justmeg
4) I'm with Jules here - I wholeheartedly agree
justmeg   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
carriepassante
5) I understand the passion here but it's not that simple. Many people that receive assistance work hard for it AND need it but get overshadowed by the people that get the "press" when it comes to this issue...

Should I thank everyone now for the government assistance we got in my younger childhood years when my single mom worked three jobs and still needed help? Or is it better to say sorry to those that got money "taken away" so my mom could pay rent?
Carrie   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
igna83
6) Carrie...I have NO problem with my money going to help folks who HELP THEMSELVES, like your mom; kudos to her, by the way! I have a sister who struggles alone each and every day and has for over 15 years, and she has received assistance in the past when she needed it, including the good folks at St. Jude--I thank God each day for the wonderful people who contribute to THAT organization, too.

My biggest issue with the current state of affairs regarding our country's assistance programs is not enough regulation. There needs to be tougher rules surrounding receiving assistance and how to keep it and for how long...I personally believe that anyone over the age of 18 should have four years to "get their act together," so to speak--it's enough time to secure a job (or two) or finish a college degree. I also believe that if you cannot provide for children and ask the state to help care for them e.g., my in-home daycare prices need to be lowered to accommodate for your subsidy, then you do not deserve to keep said children until you're prepared to provide for them fully. I also believe that if you do not have a high-school diploma or equivalent (G.E.D.), you should not be able to receive assistance. Period.

Yes, I know this would never "fly," but it's how I feel.
Angi   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
daverock
7) I wholeheartedly disagree.

"I believe slavery is a much maligned institution; if we had slavery today, we would not have this welfare mess.”

-Dr. Adrian Rogers
Dave Rock   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
ckincaid
8) Well said, Angi. Thanks!
Carrie K.   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
RickMonday
9) So what is the solution to the problem? Just stop assistance? That will never happen.

I am going to play off of Angi's idea regarding the "4 years to get their act together after they turn 18"...and will state that I believe1-2 years of mandatory military service should be required.

This will instill not only discipline in the young adults but it will also give them a sense of purpose and pride in accomplishment. But again, it will never happen.

So, what is the real solution to the problem?
RickMonday   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
10) Leave it to Will to put up a controversial statement.:)
Humzoo has been so peaceful and relaxing lately.
bek   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
RickMonday
11) too quiet,


"A good discussion/argument every 20 days or so on Humzoo is healthy"
---Thomas Jefferson
RickMonday   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
carriepassante
12) Discussing controversial topics shouldn't make anything less peaceful. I appreciate others standpoints and we don't all have to agree. Life would be too boring.

Angi, I agree that there needs to be more regulation to stop the bleeding and help those that fall through the cracks.

What if my mom didn't work those three jobs to support us? What if she got into drugs and alcohol or got so depressed about being a single mom and having that much responsibility that she just feel apart and lived on government assistance alone? If this were the case, and according to the statement posted in this blog, then on my 18th birthday I would be put on the streets with no help for food, a roof over my head or training to get A job. I would suffer for the decisions and choices my mom made raising me... and that would have been all I knew at that time. But apparently that doesn't matter... I would suffer although it really wasn't my fault.

It's a vicious cycle and we need to fix the system. But where do we start? Money has to come from somewhere to fix it rather than put a band aid on it. It's so easy to turn the other cheek when you've never been there or you don't see it on a regular basis... and I don't mean the homeless man you see walking down the street. I mean *knowing* the people that have struggled and need help and knowing the reasons they got in that place to begin with rather than lump them all into the "take from the rich and not work to earn" category. The same people that complain the most, to me, are the same people that vote no to create more regulations and support funding for programs to get to the root of the problem.
Carrie   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
justmeg
13) But Carrie - then there are people like me - I have been on food stamps, I have been on WIC and depended on both programs to feed my family - but I used the programs and "hand outs" as a hand up - a help - not a way of life . I think that is what most people complain about - the 2nd generation welfare recipients who are there because that is all they have ever been taught - how to live off of the government. I have no issues at all with giving people who truly need it the help they need - as long as they are also making some effort to better themselves and suport themselves (as your mom did) I do have issues with the 2nd and 3rd generation living off of the government.
justmeg   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
igna83
14) First of all to RickMonday--your statement is included in my thesis on our assistance program and education, which I wrote about 15 pages about in college. My peers at that time thought I was nuts, especially since I wrote about high school NOT being mandatory and I was a secondary education major. HA!

And Carrie, my sister was part of "the system" for quite some time and had to rely on the programs more than once...she doesn't learn. Will she be back there again? Probably. Why? SHE DOESN'T LEARN. My mother has also been helping/supporting her over the past twenty years and has finally figured out that no matter how much money she provides to "get her back on her feet," it'll never work. She. Doesn't. Learn. And God bless your poor mother...I'm sure it wasn't easy to do what she did, but it was what was necessary to raise her children at the time. And you obviously didn't reach age 18 only to "hit the streets" to "suffer the decisions" because you learned and knew better. Unlike my sister, who was pretty spoiled prior to age 18 and didn't learn crap.

And Meg, I like that terminology: A hand up.
Angi   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
daverock
15) I certainly don’t have a solution for welfare, but to group all people who do receive welfare as lazy is inane – which is implied by “Dr.” Adrian Rogers. Welfare is a program meant for families in need, especially at a time like this in our country. It is sad that the media has won in convincing people that it is abused most of the time, therefore it's doing more harm than good. Two people in this thread have been on welfare and succeeded to get back on track – I highly doubt they are outliers. If you really look at the numbers, it would be almost impossible to actually abuse the system anyway. An average house hold with daycare, food and necessities, rent, utilities, possible car expenses (or other transportation), clothes, etc., etc., monthly expenses can be around $3,000 - I live in Chicago and that's being conservative. Welfare gives you about $950 a month. That seems pretty hard to abuse. A very small amount of our taxes actually goes to welfare, while war expenses and the money we're using to pay off the banks are the majority. Personally I don't care at all to pay a little more in taxes to help out my fellow human beings. If I ever needed it, I know that I've paid my taxes so that's some of my money too, and I'd be very grateful.
Dave Rock   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
runt
16) In 1995 Clinton implimented a Welfare Reform Act. Part of that act put a limit on how many years you can receive CASH assistance. As an adult you are limited to five years of cash assistance. It did not put a cap on food stamps or medicaid. The five years do not have to be in a row and there are loopholes to keep you on the cash longer. However the loopholes involve work and/or schooling. VERY FEW ppl receive cash anymore, at least in Illinois. I know in the county I live in there are NO people receiving cash assistance. So there have been regulations implemented. I also know that my household of five living on my husband's salary alone qualify for public housing. I about fell out of my chair when I found that out but it is true. The "problem" with public housing is once you are in they can't kick you out for making too much money. So if you win the lottery or get a six figure a year job you can still live in housing. There are housing programs out there that do have a limit on them and at least try to get you back on your feet. The other big problem with the reform act is it took the money from being federally mandated to state mandated. The states now get a block grant that is supposed to be used for welfare programs but the state can do whatever they want with it. That is one of the reasons there is no consistency state to state and people could actually just move around and continue to abuse the system.
runt   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
RickMonday
17) I am not sure that Will intended this to be about Welfare but about redistribution of wealth.

I am not against welfare at all. I think we should support those who are down on their luck. But where do you draw the line?

We already provide a free education for people. I think we are too complacent as a society in general and expect the govt or others to take care of us.

I had a family experience where my older sister was a stay at home mom for 20 years and did not get her college degree. She had 3 kids and her husband ran out on her.

My sister was depressed for about 6 months and relied upon my parents to buy her groceries and pay her bills. It was sad...on both sides. 1. She was my sister and going through a hard time and 2. She felt sad for herself and was just sitting around the house.

However at the end of the 6 months she got her act together. She got 4 part time jobs including a paper route..(and she was 40 years old at the time). She went back to school, got her degree and now is an art teacher at a grade school in springfield, she still has her paper route, and teaches art at some hobby type of stores in town.

Her demeanor is much better and she has a sense of pride about her.

My point is that welfare and public assistance is intended for short term use until someone can pick themselves back up. Once they start using it as a crutch is when it becomes useless and a drain on the achievers.
RickMonday   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
runt
18) I want some of that free education. The elementary school where I live charges a $50 registration fee. That isn't so bad but then you get to high school. My friend who lives near Springfield, IL pays over $300 PER CHILD at the high school level. This isn't for any special class either but for required classes that have lab fees, book fees, etc. Then you have to add in the locker fee, the lock for the locker fee, etc.
runt   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
carriepassante
19) Taking from the rich and giving to the poor is essentially what the welfare system is... correct? As stated, the money/support/assistance that these people get have to come from somewhere and it apparently all comes from the rich.

Meg, I know you have used your assistance as a hand up, not a hand out. You are a great mom. It doesn't always work out that way. While I agree that we can't let these people just live off the government, my concern (and disdain) is about the complaints but no willingness to resolve. How can these people make it... especially these 2nd and 3rd generation people? My mom made it... bless her heart, but she also had an education and taught us values along the way. A lot of these people caught in this trap have parents that are/were on welfare that never got an education themselves... all they know is the quickest way to a dollar and everything else that is illegal or morally wrong in our society. To some people, it's called survival. I see it everyday. I'm not talking about just the consumers I work for, but their families, too. They have ROUGH lives and never knew it any other way. How do they get out of the cycle and start making a difference? They need help. They need assistance getting a job. They need assistance getting to a job. They need assistance to wear appropriate clothes to a job. They need assistance with childcare so they go to their job everyday. They need education and birth control assistance so they don't have 8 kids to find childcare for to get to the job everyday.

By no means do I defend anyone who chooses to stay home and not make a positive life for themselves but I know first hand it's a lot more complex than that.
Carrie   Wednesday, April 8, 2009
justmeg
20) I wholeheartedly agree that the 2nd and 3rd generation need assistance - they need help - they need education - and everything that you outlined above. The problem is - our current welfare system does NOT provide that. And I have no clue how to fix it.

I know the so called "free" education in this country is not that anymore. I think we have all talked about this on another blog here. I pay taxes in my school district and that is where my children attend school. But the teachers are paid horribly, they are not adequately provided for in the classroom and, most of the time, take money out of their own pockets to provide for their classrooms. I know the supply list I get at the first part of the year is outragous and I always buy extra because I know there will always be 2-3 kids in the class that have nothing. But it is a sad state of affairs when the so-called "free" education actually ends up costing me close to $500 a year per child.
justmeg   Thursday, April 9, 2009
mattandrobyn
21) FYI: as a "former" teacher I got to write off my out-of -pocket expenses...however the gvmt only allows for up to $250.00 and I ALWAYS had at least twice that. I guess if I divide that per student I taught per year then that averages out to about $1.04 per child. For those of you trying to do that math in your head twice 250 is $500 divided by 480 students (yes 480) then that gets you about $1.04. I guess my dollar four went far! I don't regret spending the money and would do it again...but it is still out of my pocket.
Robyn&Matt   Thursday, April 9, 2009
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